Forum:What defines a hitpoint?

I'm wondering what truly defines a hitpoint on this wiki. Basically, some of the articles say that they have a certain amount of hitpoints because that's how many Eggs it takes to defeat them. Others say that they have a certain amount of hitpoints because that's how many Forward Rolls it takes to defeat them. I think that Eggs deal half the damage Forward Rolls do; so my question is this: do Eggs deal 1 damage and Forward Rolls deal 2, or do Eggs deal 1/2 damage and Forward Rolls deal 1?  Xykeb   Yvolix   Zraliv  08:05, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I have no clue. Eggs do deal much less damage than Forward Rolls, so if they're the weakest form of damage, then that deals one hitpoint of damage. I don't think there would be "half" damage, and I think it's safe to assume that the enemies use close to the same HP system as Banjo. droginator1 08:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

That really is kind of a problem. Forward Rolls are the most standard type of attack, so if we put the amount of Eggs it takes to defeat them, some people might get confused. However, it isn't totally correct to put the amount of Forward Rolls it takes to defeat them. What should we do?  Xykeb   Yvolix   Zraliv  18:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ...Great. This is confusing. What can we do? We have no clue which is which. If we were to base it on Eggs, while many base it on Forward Rolls, then that wouldn't be good. But Eggs are more exact. I really have no idea what we should do. What have we been basing it off of? Hasn't Toomai been covering the HP parts of enemy pages? droginator1 21:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

From what I've seen, most base them on Forward Rolls, except for the ones that can only be defeated by Eggs, which are based on Eggs. So the bottom line is that Eggs are more correct, but Forward Rolls are more recognized by the average gamer (in other words, the average gamer defines hitpoints as the amount of Forward Rolls it takes to defeat something).  Xykeb   Yvolix   Zraliv  03:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed, but it is still kind of up in the air. Eggs, claw swipes, and rolls are all very low-damage attacks, but unfortunately the weakest attack, that being eggs, don't do just one damage. It's a problem, since while one enemy might take two eggs or two swipes to kill, another enemy might take two eggs or only one swipe. I think Toomai is expecting me to start recording how many eggs, swipes, and rolls each enemy from B-K and B-T, but I'm a bit embarrassed to admit, I haven't actually started. About the HP on the articles, ever since er realized damage and HP was more complex than we thought at first, I've been really hesitant to give enemies HP values (and in fact, haven't been), but I haven't been the only one writing articles and creating infoboxes. So yeah, all the enemy HP values (except those for bosses, of course) and pretty much useless.

Well, I think it is the number of attacks it takes to defeat them. Look at Mr. Patch, his patches take one grenade egg to deal damage. (Ok I might be overstating it back there but still, what we need is the maximum number of attacks it takes to defeat one enemy.) I think the attack that does the least amount of damage (Claw Swipe, Peck ect:) should be our guide. Lets say it takes 5 claw swipes to defeat mr punchy. Then we would say that he has 5 hit points. (Put it like Banjo's health, some things do more damage, but most attacks just take one health.) Oh yea, we wil also need a way to determine how much damage some attacks do. That way, the enemies that we can't easily reach can have their health determined. Learner4 15:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Bosses are much different than regular enemies in terms of HP; not only does it display boss HP on screen (in BT), but attacks deal certain amounts of damage to each boss that aren't equivalent to normal enemies. For example, Fire Eggs and Grenade Eggs are the same to Weldar, whereas a Billy Bob needs two Fire Eggs but one Grenade Egg to die. I've set up a system that can tell me how each attack stacks up to each other attack once data starts coming in. The system will pipe out an inequality such as "egg < 3/5(roll)"; this (in BK) means that a Blue Egg does less damage than three-fifths the damage of a roll. (This particular equation is not based on data, it's just an example.) Once data starts filling the table, the values will get more and more concrete, and I can start assigning arbitrary yet useful values to each attack. I plan to do some testing myself, but if ANYONE wants to collect data about how many hits of any attack beats a non-boss enemy (including the Wondering, Beak Bomb, and transformations in any of BK, BT, or BKGR), then by all means post it on my talk page or e-mail me at toomai(undahscor)glittershine{shift-2}yahoo[dott]ca with the info. Toomai 16:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

We have a problem! Here're some preliminary results I've tested: As you can see, Claw Swipes and Blue Eggs can't decide which does more damage. Does this make testing now impossible, or is there a way around it? Toomai 19:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm seriously wondering if we should really put hitpoints at all.  Xykeb   Yvolix   Zraliv  00:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

To make matters worse, it seems that enemies aren't programmed to respond to all attacks. The Beak Bomb travels right through the Whiplash on the ceiling of Clanker's belly, and it doesn't affect the Seaman Grublin or Floatsam where the Flight Pad is in Rusty Bucket Bay. Nipper takes three hits from the Rat-A-Tat Rap or Wonderwing only (nothing else works, including the Beak Bomb). And not every enemy can be hit with every attack - the Rat-A-Tap Rap can't be tested on the Black Snippet, for example.

However, I have been able to determine the general pattern of attack strength in BK: Claw Swipe, Blue Egg, Forward Roll, Rat-A-Tap Rap, Beak Barge, Beak Buster, Wonderwing/Croc Chomp. Toomai 01:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you serious? Some enemies take more swipes than eggs? Xykeb, I think I might agree with you.
 * Also, Toomai, Whiplashes are invulnerable anyway. About the black Snippet: if it still matters at this point, you can try luring it to the pool of water and jumping out at it from there.
 * Beh, I tried that, and the darn crab bounces away when you flip it over, preventing you from killing it.

Anyway, if we think we need to record some form of "how many attacks you need to kill an enemy", I can whip up some images that indicate how many of a certain move is needed to KO each enemy. So, you'd look at Quarrie's infobox under "Vitality" or something and you see three images with a "1" on them and a tooltip (that text that appears when you hover your mouse over something) that says "This enemy dies to 1 Blue Egg", "This enemy dies to 1 Beak Barge", etc.

Of course, BT and BK:GR probably use different HP systems, so we may be able to get some real HP numbers there. Toomai 20:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If different enemies in B-K/B-T respond differently to different attacks, then I'd rather we just keep any mention of hit points off those pages. What good to me is knowing how many Beak Barges it takes to kill an enemy when I usually use the Rat-a-tat Rap? It's still good for bosses and such, but if we can't come up with a system which works consistently for all enemies...then it's really no good - unless you wanted to somehow list how many of every attack it takes to kill something without cluttering the infobox. 05:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)